The New Model For Shareholder Activism; The BS Myth Around ”Soft Skills”; Measuring The Wrong Stuff

Author, Tribal Leadership

In this episode:



In this episode, I break down the current paradigm for shareholder activism, speak to the new model that I invented which is vastly superior both in results and reliability. We discuss the myth of “if it can’t be measured, it doesn’t exist”, the myth around “soft skills”, and how people often ask the wrong questions or measure the wrong stuff due to perverted influences by HR departments.

If you’re interested in more discussion of the new model for shareholder activism I developed, see the following links below:

Eric Schleien - quote

New Podcast

Hey All! I’ve started a second show completely devoted to the field of Ontology which is another huge passion of mine. Please check out The Eric Scheien Podcast which is an ontological podcast where I break down distinctions of human consciousness as an access to enhancing performance.


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[00:00:16] Hi, this is Eric Schleien. You were listening to the intelligent investing podcast. This is quite a unique episode for me to do. For those of you who don’t know, and some of you, and probably many of you who listened to this show right here, really do know this. I had been for several years now working on a project.

[00:00:35] To combine the world of transformation or ontological work. With shareholder activism. Simply because it’s a much more, significantly more effective way to make an impact to companies than your typical, management consulting cost cutting and all that jazz, nothing wrong with it.

[00:00:57] It just has severely more [00:01:00] limited results and it also much more unreliable and a harder game. To play. But that’s the predominant model. That’s the predominant game. That shareholder activist play, and you can be very good at it, right? There’s people who are better than others. And there are people that are, have a good track record at playing that game.

[00:01:19] But there’s another game to play where you’re actually transforming companies. It’s actually easier. It takes less time and it’s more reliable. I did an entire episode on that. So I’m not going to actually go into the details on this episode. For those of you interested in that episode, I’m going to link it to the show notes.

[00:01:37] And it’s simply called a new model for shareholder activism, and I go pretty deep into. Into that world. I also have a website or an outline. How this works a little bit more and I have some white papers and frequently asked questions highly recommend the frequently asked questions. You can go to proxy

[00:01:58] And you get some more [00:02:00] information. From there then of course you could always just do a call with me. And some of my colleagues. And get a deeper sense of some of the work that we have done. With companies over the many years, this episode particularly comes from. A common myth.

[00:02:17] That’s. Not really said, but it’s in the background. And it often prevents people from seeing the opportunity. And the myth that gets. Shared the myth that gets, percolated into the business community. Is, if you can’t measure it. It doesn’t matter, or if you can’t measure it doesn’t exist.

[00:02:38] So many of the questions when looking to bring, say consultants in. Is. They’re asking questions from the wrong game. And by asking the wrong questions. You ended up bringing in people who were actually not playing.

[00:02:57] The. The game you’d actually [00:03:00] want to play. So for example, If I was having some major cultural dysfunction. I might ask the question. If I didn’t really understand how this stuff worked, I might ask the question. What what was the three T what were some tactics that you used?

[00:03:17] To change the culture. What were some tactics that you use to transform the business around?

[00:03:23] And the people that are actually doing transformational work. They will roll your eyes, roll their eyes with a question like that. And probably not be very attracted to working at that company. And it’s usually an HR person asking something like that. So typically that your typical HR questions that get asked.

[00:03:42] You end up attracting these consultants or, flavors of the fucking month for for people who are interested in making entire presentations. That don’t cause anything they’re actually quite useless, but they check a box for HR departments or they fit in nicely with the spreadsheet.

[00:03:57] So we go a bit deeper into [00:04:00] that. I’m co-leading this program with John. So this is actually an excerpt from. A program I led earlier this week and it was our sixth week into this particular tribal leadership program. And I’m actually, co-leading the program with John who wrote one of the top business books of all time.

[00:04:18] And it was a New York times bestseller tribal leadership. Which gives a very surface view on his work. So with that without do I hope you enjoy the episode. And, this is a very Not only important. Topic for me, but I’ve really devoted a lot of my life to this. If you have any other questions for me or want to have further discussions, whether you actually want to,

[00:04:38] Bring me in my colleagues and, to accompany or you’re just curious. And you want to learn I’m always happy to have conversations with listeners and. People about this in general. I love these kinds of conversations, so I hope you enjoy the episode.

[00:04:51] Jeff. I’ll share with you something personal that, you’ll find that as you play this leadership [00:05:00] game and you’ll not only will you see, there’s not a lot of people doing it. People will start to wonder like what’s going on in this office or how did this happen? And generally people are asking the wrong question and they’ll want to see, what’s the thing you did.

[00:05:22] What’s the tactic that had people start performing, but are there, they’re still in that conversation? What’s the secret sauce. Yeah. And we’re at where I deal with this a lot. The being in the investment world, one of the things that I had been working at the last few years is trying to bring this work into public companies, to make a difference with public companies.

[00:05:46] Let’s call it shareholder activists. It’s a very different way of doing it than just district typical. Cost-cutting I would say a superior way of doing it. The thing that I run into, which has become a problem is I can [00:06:00] show all these successes. And I just had a situation like this about a week ago, and we created this entire me and a colleague I’m working with, we created this entire.

[00:06:11] For an investor who’s who does activism, all these companies, what happened. And he started to want us to what were the metrics? What did you do? And he it’s like when he can get is the culture conversation the soft stuff, which is the hard stuff. It doesn’t fit neatly in an Excel spreadsheet.

[00:06:35] And there’s this myth, which is really just really not a useful it stuck true. But to myth that the soft stuff, if it, if you can’t measure it, it doesn’t exist. And it’s like, how insane? It’s asinine actually. You know what we’re doing in this program, when they’ve done long-term studies on those [00:07:00] work companies, three to 500% performance increases accompanies three to five X profits.

[00:07:07] It’s sales organizations, three to five X in sales. And then the low level conversation is what’s the tactic that you use to get more sales. It’s holy shit, but that’s how people are operating. So this is a really high level conversation that most people aren’t having. And two, and when you start delivering, it’s going to occur for others, almost like magic.

[00:07:31] Now we know it’s not magic. This there’s nothing mystical about this. But it looks like that because they’re asking they’re on a diff they’re in a different game than you’re playing, whether they’re in the success game or in the success game, nothing wrong with it. It’s just not as effective. And, generally what we have found is when companies want to take their game to the next level, they go, oh, we have an execution issue.

[00:07:56] No, it’s not an execution issue. This is the place to [00:08:00] look 99% of the time, this resolves that shit, but they don’t, they just want to figure out how do we be more efficient? And they bring in the Kinsey or, some consulting firm and try to make things a little bit more efficient.

[00:08:11] But the role in that game, it does produce some results. But this is at a whole different level. Yeah. That’s that’s really good and pungent, there’s a, as you go through your life, there’s actually three ways that you are in life be, do or have, and in the be, do or have way of being in life.

[00:08:34] Leadership is a being conversation that inspires people into doing so that they have. So leaders don’t really do anything rather than that’s why they say they’re inspiring. The word inspiration means filled with the breadth of gut. So you’re filled with the breath of God. You’re inspiring to people, the way you’re being a leader.[00:09:00]

[00:09:00] And then the people are doing remarkable things. They’re taking on things that are projects that are worth failing at. And and taking on projects that are worth failing, they grow and they develop and they have, would not have had the just being ordinary have. And that’s why there’s only three real distinctions, which are aha.

[00:09:25] And wow. I don’t know if you’ve had that conversation you probably have. Yeah. Then the two day Jeffery, and this was, this is distinct from some, flavor of the fucking month coming into a company that, probably brought up by an HR person and they’re doing some, inspirational motivational speech that might sound really nice and it checks off a box, but doesn’t actually cause anything.

[00:09:47] No, it’s really interesting. Harvard did a study a number of years ago and this was out of Harvard business school and it was a well really well-designed study and everything. And what they [00:10:00] discovered was that there are two places, two places in the business community or the business culture that are absolutely worthless.

[00:10:11] And one of them is team. I don’t know how many team building processes that you’ve been on, but usually it’s on a Friday afternoon and the culmination is somebody falls off a table and you catch them and we trust each other and you hug each other and you say kumbaya, and then you go away. Then you come back on Monday and nothing’s changed.

[00:10:30] So team building, and then the second one is diversity training, total racket, total waste of time, total waste of money. We spent well over $50 billion a year in American corporate industry. And so like that, doing those two, and they’re completely wasteful. They’re both in the the realm of the HR departments.

[00:10:52] And that’s what the HR department does because they’re among other things, they’ve got some sort of [00:11:00] credibility or certification from HR and like a degree maybe even a doctorate, so like that, and they’ve never, ever heard it. So they just do what they think and what they learned back when they were studying.

[00:11:15] One of the troubles with HR is HR does not have a seat in the C-suite and it’s built in to being an HR that there’s a kind of a chip on the shoulder, resentment that they don’t have a vote in the C-suite. And what they are is they’re just carrying over. For the, for the operations guy or for the, whoever assigned them, the finance department or stuff like that.

[00:11:40] And so they run around and they okay, I’m going to provide the doing this. And and one of the things that they do often, and it’s expensive is they get motivational speakers. It makes zero difference. It’s a total waste of time, money, and effort like that. So [00:12:00] knowing that one of the things that we’re providing here is we’re trying to provide leadership and leadership is grounded in listening.

[00:12:08] So is the listening people into existence is great and doing it as a professional, you don’t take a break, you just don’t take a break from it. Kim, did you have a question? I saw you raising your hand earlier. It was similar to what Jeffrey was going through. And I noticed with what I have been, I guess focused in on the last couple of days is just that I it’s, I need more patients and opportunities to witness other people’s values at work.

[00:12:44] I was going to say, or when I raised my hand, but yeah, one of the things is you got to go to them. Kim, and you you can’t really there, you can’t do push technology with people. If you look [00:13:00] at it through the marketing lens, it’s all cool. And it’s all pull that they are inspired to follow you because you have a purpose that is a higher purpose.

[00:13:12] So getting yourself really clear about what is what is your higher purpose and how would you know it if you achieved it? This question about measuring, like it isn’t real. If you can’t measure it, engineers say this a lot. I work with engineers quite a bit, and it’s here’s what you say to them.

[00:13:33] And somebody says, if you can’t measure it, it’s not really a safe, have you ever been in love?

[00:13:40] Have you ever been you? I’ll tell you if you’re doing your love as a measured state of being you’re not in first place and you’re going to be divorced.

[00:13:57] Yeah. That makes sense. What you’re saying [00:14:00] though, I’m finding my purpose. And basically what you said to Jeffrey about the will to meaning and I’ll bring the values out of them. Oh yeah. Let me give you another word that I think will be of value to you, Kim. And I think everybody else, and the word is surrender.

[00:14:19] And I want to say it in a specific way. It’s called surrendering first into your greatness and then surrendering into the greatness of others. People are not good at this. It feels oh, it’s weak or it’s vulnerable or whatever. No, it’s just, it’s a sign of strength. It’s what leaders do. They surrender into the greatness of the people they leave.

[00:14:42] But the greatness that they’re surrendering into is not this kind of bag of flesh that is over there, that they’re looking at, they’re surrendering into the meaning and the fulfillment of the meaning of the relationship. So surrender is a [00:15:00] big part, especially going from stage two, three to stage four.

[00:15:04] The only way you can get into it is surrender into it and surrender to the people you’re working with and surrender into the greater idea. The surrender is a big deal about stage four.

[00:15:18] And John, if I may ask one, one question. I’m already madly in love with you. So Hey, just hit it out. Rip nip away. Oh one thing you said that stood out to me is leadership is about showing up, whether you want to or not. And what happens when you’re in a scenario where there’s a long period of time where it’s what you don’t want to be doing, or, it’s what you want to be doing, but it’s not quite fruitful.

[00:15:49] At what point do you seek a reward or maybe that’s coming from a part of the cultural map that’s bad. Or maybe I’m not asking this the right way, but sometimes I feel that way. [00:16:00] I think that’s a very pungent question. I think it goes back to meaning again, shots. And I think it’s are you fulfilling on your meeting?

[00:16:09] Say like Aristotle said, the aim is for good. So if you’re not having an experience of good, you’re not gonna have any experience in fulfillment of your meaning. And all you’re doing is getting in there and plugging away and being a great guy and all of that sort of stuff. Now, this is not about that.

[00:16:32] Let’s see, coaching, the coaching is really easy and punching on that. It’s called stop doing that. Now you have the choice. And you’re going well, I’m stuck here. It’s my paycheck. I got to pay the rent and everything else like that. Yeah. Yeah. But you could make a plan and then two or three or six months, it could be somewhere else doing something else that is actually much more fulfilling.

[00:16:59] Is that [00:17:00] respond to you. Sean’s that makes sense. That makes sense. Another thing that you’d notice I’d do it so that I’m doing this. So I’m demonstrating something. Is people ask you a question you’re responsible question, and then you ask them if they, if it made sense to them, you check it. The reason is leaders lead by virtue of the permission of the people they lead.

[00:17:28] And so the way that you know, that you’re still the leader of these people is you check in and make sure that your communication is landing in a way that is benefiting to that. So I could just say the answer and move on and say the answer and move on. That’s what that, that’s not what leadership is about.

[00:17:48] Leadership is like responding to the person, going to the person they’re asking, giving them the best answer you have and then say, does that make sense? And if it doesn’t [00:18:00] make sense to talk about it a little more or find somebody else who could say it better, does that make sense? There you go. And you guys noticed, that’s why when you know, we’re in the classrooms and Alaska, everyone, not only is that clear what I was saying, but is there any, yeah.

[00:18:20] Buts what ifs, concerns things up. And I want to hear those things if they’re in the way, because my job isn’t, for you to just, blindly agree with me that it’s not that, I said a nice thing that I did a good job looking at Eric, didn’t he, that’s not the point. And I always know why, what I said, didn’t get him.

[00:18:42] If I have a conversation and then someone goes, oh, you really did a good job in that conversation. It’s shit that’s on me. That’s not, that is not what I want. If that’s the end result, I did not do my job effectively.

[00:18:59] Is that clear [00:19:00] what I’m saying? Yeah. Eric, you did a good job there. Thank you. That was a really good answer. My question. What was your full answer? I really brilliant answer. If I want to pitch, I’ll just call you Jeff or piss you off there. That would be an error, Eric. Okay. I got it. So we’re going to go into a breakout room just as a matter of time.

[00:19:23] So we’re going to 20 minutes. And we’re actually just going to stay in the main room. So it’s going to be a room of four y’all. And so John you’ll participate with everyone else. And what I want you guys to discuss no coaching, just a freeform conversation, but have a conversation on it’s just a jam session just to riff exactly what we’re doing.

[00:19:46] We’re just having a jam session is notice, we talked a little bit about, honoring the process, and being processed, driven, not just the amateur outcome driven conversation. And you [00:20:00] want to start to look at, where are you honoring? Where are you actually currently honoring the process?

[00:20:06] From a stage four point of view, unfolding your noble cause. And then where are you not consistent? Where are you not aligned? Or where do you tell yourself you are? And you are, so you want to look at that. That’s the first thing. And then the second thing I want you guys just to have in the background is what do you actually see.

[00:20:27] In this conversation that John has, generously shared his time with today and just what’s been opening up for you. What are you seeing? What connections are you making and the, that the little pro tip that I’ll give you guys is start to look where you can make connections to other distinctions in tribal leadership.

[00:20:46] Remember one of the things I said that first day, you don’t remember, but I’ll remind you if you don’t remember. One of the first things I said in a two day is that every single model and distinction [00:21:00] that is brought up interacts with every other tool model and distinction and the work. And first sometimes it’ll look like this has nothing to do with anything or a look like an isolated thing.

[00:21:14] And then as the two days unfold, you start to see things and things start to open up. So you want to do that again here, take a look at what you’re seeing today. What’s opening up for you this evening and look to see how you can make connections to the other distinctions in the program and do it for you.

[00:21:33] See one of the ways some of you have taught. I know John I’ve talked to you about. I don’t keep notebooks. I keep a Zettel Casta. And it’s a, it’s basically a way of taking notes where you’re comparing every note you take to every other note you’ve ever taken. And over time, the system will give you outputs on insights that you would never would have had from any individual idea.

[00:21:57] You’re constantly making connections. The reason [00:22:00] that works so much better than general note-taking, which is what most people do is because the brain does not work in a linear fashion. It actually works by making connections and come, and then you create new insights and new ideas. So you want to look at it from that place.

[00:22:19] They want to have any questions before we go for the 20 minutes,

[00:22:25] can you just refresh our memory on the conversation? I know you said it, but it was three minutes ago. Yeah. You just want to, the first one is you just want to honor. You want to look at where you’re honoring the process and then also look like where you’re not congruent to that. And from a stage four point of view where you’re not unfolding your noble, cause we are not actually living life from a place of meaning because there’s an unpack there.

[00:22:52] And sometimes we get really good at the success conversation. The stage three success conversation, we get very good at plowing through life [00:23:00] at the expense of doing things that really fulfill us and give us meaning. And it, the better you get at it, the more fucked you are because it creates a psychological trial can be really painful to rip that bandaid off.

[00:23:15] Some of you have experienced

[00:23:19] clear.

[00:23:24] Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Maybe, but I’ll. Jeff, I’ve got a tip for you. Okay. Because like you say, you have a hard time entering into the conversation and driving it. You don’t have any time. No problem talking once you get it going, but getting it organized so that you can do it. That was a little bit of what your question was with me a little bit earlier.

[00:23:47] Here’s the tip and this is for everybody. Start in the middle. Okay. Start in the middle, start with what you’re present to and then wander around and you will actually find your group [00:24:00] Jeffrey. This is the leaning in conversation. I got it. I get it. Oh, and Gianna request. Please call me Jeffrey.

[00:24:06] Okay, great. Thanks for leaning in. All right, so we’re going in 20 minutes now. We’ll be back at 10 o’clock. We’ll just go over the assignments for two minutes. We’ll be like five minutes over tonight and then we’ll finish up. So I’ll see you guys back in 20.

[00:24:30] Great. John I get why why you like to play ping pong because hearing you speak, I just, I want to I want to play ping pong with you. It’s I don’t know if you do you know, you probably do. There’s an incredible story. And this is about a noble cause. So maybe it’ll segue in that Herbie Hancock tells about working with miles Davis, the story, incredible story, right?

[00:24:53] It’s I was thinking about it a lot during your sharing, and if you don’t know the story basically is for [00:25:00] the for Shazzie and Kim really fast it’s he makes a big mistake. He’s playing with miles Davis. He makes a huge mistake. He plays the totally wrong chord and he’s he ha Herbie Hancock is so upset.

[00:25:11] The moment he hits the court and he literally puts his face in his hands and he goes, oh my God, that was terrible. And miles who’s a genius among geniuses is completely unfazed by it acts as if it was completely correct, completely normal plays rips as, and makes the chord, so not only does he not get phased by it, he actually makes the mistake beautiful and correct, and right.

[00:25:37] And that’s a story about riff. And a, certainly a noble cause that miles was on. And that would be, I think, John, tell me if this is correct with triadic relationships, perhaps Herbie’s triad was incorrect, but that’s like Herbie’s part of the triad. Myles is part of the triad and the idea of creating great [00:26:00] music or following that is the third thing, not a person, but a noble cause or concept as part of a triad.

[00:26:06] Would you say that it’s really right? It’s the purposes jazz to make music and in that moment of when Herbie went and apologized to him after they got off stage and miles looked at him and said, what are you talking about? And he said I hit a wrong note. And miles Davis said, there are no wrong notes.

[00:26:25] That was it. There are no wrong notes. It’s what you do with them. And if you walked away from it, I love it. I don’t know. Schatz Kim. Good to see you both eye shadow. I know you’re not feeling well. I’m not feeling well either, but you’re making me feel better. All of you. Yeah. Oh one day at a time, like I keep saying yeah this, the question that Eric posed is been particularly relevant to me where you’re not honoring process over outcome No I’m going Eric just gone through this too, with the markets [00:27:00] right now.

[00:27:00] And, I’m constantly seeking pleasurable outcomes and I’m getting none of that. So it’s creating a negative feedback loop. So now I’ve tried to take a step back and say, where am I, w why am I even doing this? And the answers, because I’m curious about the world and I want to learn and I’m trying to anchor to that by not, let me go learn about what’s going on with this company or this situation, and trying to lean into that and leverage that to be an example for other people who are also doing the same pleasure seeking behavior getting punished by doing that watching your physicians go down every day.

[00:27:39] So that, that’s what I’m trying to do right now is trying to just focus on that learning aspect of that, and, developing curiosity, which is the value here. And just really focusing on that to, hopefully over time that leads to good outcomes, but even just not even anchoring to the outcome, just anchored to a process that facilitates [00:28:00] learning and therefore facilitates, an understanding such that you can make decisions.

[00:28:04] That’s where I am. There’s something great about that. That to attach to what Kim really was talking about a little while ago when she was saying I guess I have to learn that patience. And she mentioned patients in your case, I think that would be forgiveness. So not a lot of people know what the actual meaning of forgiveness is, but what it, and it’s right there in the word it means to give as before.

[00:28:31] So whatever the incident was, if you can actually give being like how the person was including you before the incident. So I say that you’re probably not a bad idea for you to dwell in forgiveness for because the market is doing its cycle. That’s all it’s doing. Yes. Yeah. The, my brain damage you create on yourself as [00:29:00] is more, is worse than the actual cycle precisely.

[00:29:03] And more to come by the way. Yeah. Yeah. What are you going to do when you drop about $6 trillion into the economy and say, you want to fix things, it’s like what form of video see did we vote for, has to come out. Yeah, it’s natural. Every single time. It happens every single time that they do that.

[00:29:27] And they do that every single time. Yeah. Forgiveness is a tough one for me. Historically maybe it’s a tough one for most people. Curious if you have any advice on how to better dwell and through getting this well, I have a question first of all, that has to do with something else is are you by any chance of first son, okay, first son, case closed, you’re guilty.[00:30:00]

[00:30:01] Everything is on your shoulders. Everything is expected of you and you don’t want to, cause like I’m not here for you. She has I am here for the dreams and aspirations of your mother and father and your grandparents. And I’m here for the legacy and promise that you’re going to be leading to your children and grandchildren, but you’re the guy I get to work with.

[00:30:26] And you’re at less than optimum work ability. When you are living in your head, not forgiving yourself rather than designing, where do I go in the face of everything to fulfill. On my aim or my goal or my noble, it’s what this question was, it was like, where are you not being like that?

[00:30:57] So it’s not easy. I’m a first [00:31:00] son too. Okay. And it keeps me moving it’s in the DNA and stuff like that. It just seems there’s probably something in there that you were making up about. You are in danger of disappointing your parents or something like that. I could get that completely.

[00:31:24] I can get that completely. It’s a story. Okay. When you have an accident, you fall down and you break your arm or something like that. There’s a saying, and the saying is pain is mandatory. Suffering is optional. Okay. Now you’re in a place where you can make it up. There’s a lot of pain in the way that you know, it’s going with you and your positions in the market and everything.

[00:31:52] There’s actually no pain. Pain is what I hit you in the face. But you are in the suffering mode [00:32:00] and all suffering is a story. Okay. And it’s a big story for the big brother. Or, the number one son, it’s a big story. No, you’re stepping into your father’s footprints and stepping into your end. You’ve got a culture and a community around you where you also did you come here from somewhere or were you born in the U S I was born in the U S my parents were came here in the eighties from Mumbai.

[00:32:33] I’ve been to Mumbai. I taught like what? Yeah. And I taught Chinnai as well. And in Sri Lanka. So I’ve been in your neighborhood and you’re you’re a special quality, but I think you’re a little bit unfocused as to what is your aim or your purpose, your meaning like that. And whatever the assignments going to be [00:33:00] this week.

[00:33:00] And I know it’s going to be an ascending up for you to go out and practice so you can learn and correct. I know it’s going to be that way, but I would say I would dwell, I wouldn’t do anything with it. I would just what is my purpose? Yeah, I’ve been focused on it. I have not come up with the right answer.

[00:33:20] Maybe we need to take my. What is a great purpose? Something you could get jazzed about, let’s take and take you out of the claim because all of the, all of everything that’s going on with you is just about you. It’s not about the market at all.

[00:33:39] Good stuff. Does that make sense to you? Is that useful for you? Yes. Okay, good.

[00:33:51] I just keep thinking about work. I’ve been really present to basically my place or my role, [00:34:00] and I think, I feel like I’m experiencing or noticing it in a whole new way as of lately, as of, I don’t know, whenever, like I, so I got lunch with my, the CEO of my company on Monday and I, that kind of inspired me more to.

[00:34:23] Actually uplift my team more because my complaints about the team were fully acknowledged and very much on his radar and my way of handling things. If I I wouldn’t have handled things that way. And that’s generally we were very much on the same page about how one ought to handle things, basically in the world of being a professional.

[00:34:52] And so I just noticed that I keep fixating on what,

[00:34:59] like [00:35:00] what my teammates and my boss are like struggling with or what gets in their way. And then I’m dwelling on how I can remove those things or just make them less of an obstacle, or, I don’t know, just not obviously not ruffle any feathers in a way to be like unsuccessful, but also just be like, no, like we’re above this.

[00:35:29] I think we’re better than that. Like we can do better than that. I’m just like stuck in that place right now. And I’ve been there for the last day or so. Yeah, no, I told you a little bit earlier, one of the key word for you to take into surrender, which is for forever, and there’s a word that accompanies surrender, which is permission, giving yourself permission to lead rather than trying to do it the right way.

[00:35:57] I would not recommend you try and do it the right way. You [00:36:00] will not do it the right way. No, but do it the human way. And that is where your approach. So I have a friend partner that he was a highly successful in the military. Flew helicopters, trained. He taught leadership at west point. He also was teaching leadership at Indiana university and he retired as Lieutenant Colonel, but he actually caused a number of generals and he has invented a whole conversation that I, you could probably.

[00:36:42] And the conversation is called lead from your current position. So give yourself permission to lead from your current position and lead in a human way. You’ll make mistakes and you will correct like that because [00:37:00] people are looking to you and they need you. And if you don’t show up, they’re not going to have the the benefit of the contribution that you have the ability to make.

[00:37:13] So I won’t say things like be bold or stuff like that. I’m not saying that’s not appropriate here. What is that surrender into the greatness of the group? Give yourself permission to lead from your current position as the human being.

[00:37:31] Does that make sense to you? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s a good one. That’s a good one. So how do these conversations land with you, Jeffrey

[00:37:48] un-muting? I

[00:37:49] I thought for me, a lot of what you were speaking to an answer to my earlier questions was really relevant. And I th I think. [00:38:00] The I wrote it down, but the basically, getting into the situation, not quite knowing however you phrased it in the middle.

[00:38:07] I, as it is, don’t, it’s interesting hearing what you said to about being the eldest son. I don’t have his same background. I can appreciate it and I can, get it, I can grok it. I don’t have the same background as a stranger in a strange land. No, but I’ve read about it and I know the word and I read it, I’ll put it on my list.

[00:38:33] Great. It’s a great read. But I’m I’m an only child. You’re an only child. Only child is also a first born son. And not only am I an only child, but I’m an only child after three failed pregnancies. And I think there’s I think that there’s an in the world of surrender. I think there’s a lot of pressure on me, from outside from [00:39:00] me, from whatever right.

[00:39:00] Internalized blah, blah, blah of getting it right the first time. A perfectionist. And I think that, maybe the fear, the concern, the whatever’s around that kind of keeps me in somewhat of a prison. Yes. Really good. And really perceptive.

[00:39:22] Here’s the thing to remember, just as a fact of reality. Yeah. You’re in the 95th, 96, 90 seventh percentile. So there’s a praise that is you might want to use, I wouldn’t say it out loud, but the phrases fuck them. If they can’t take a joke,

[00:39:45] you just shoot your best shot. You just shoot your best shot. And the thing about it is you’ve always got room to correct. Cause you’re in the 96 percentile. That’s very true. I you’re I don’t mean that in a [00:40:00] whatever. I know that’s true. Yeah. Listen, you won everywhere. You’ve gone.

[00:40:05] You’ve been successful every again. And occasionally it maybe took you a little bit longer because you had the correct and then you corrected and then you came out on top. Your entire life is organized around victory. Your entire life is organized around finding the good and delivering the good and.

[00:40:26] Victorious and whatever it is, like for example, everything has a purpose medicine as a purpose to the purposes, health and health has victory. Okay. Financial planning and the purpose is financial security and financial security is victory. And education, the purpose of education is learning.

[00:40:50] And when learning occurs, it’s a victory. So we’re all engaged in kind of an effort towards victory. And the [00:41:00] people that you’re engaged with are all in the 95th plus percentile. So you’re dealing with the cream of the crop. And not only are you dealing with the cream of the crop shares, you are the cream of the crop and having, without being arrogant about it, having an acceptance, a surrender into that, you are not only dealing with the cream of the crop that you are, the cream of the crop actually opens you up to even be more useful in what your life is actually about.

[00:41:35] And I will tell you what your life’s about as a leader is it’s about service and contribution.

[00:41:44] So there, how do you know that you’re at the top? Yeah. Just take a look at your life. Okay. School was [00:42:00] easy for you. You were able to audit and cherry pick and still get through school. And you probably scored in the top core tile of your class. If not in the top high percentage, you’re successful with people, you are a likable guy that people want to be around.

[00:42:20] You have entered and you’re in a very fast paced, difficult kind of profession. I was doing that for while I was trading futures for about four or five years. Oh, it’s crazy. Now futures. Yeah. And it was insane that this was going into 19 80, 70, 80, 87, French,

[00:42:45] Brutal. And I was a technical trader, which I have a feeling you’re pretty technical.

[00:42:53] Okay, good. Yeah. It’s brutal. No. How do you know, how do you know is, that [00:43:00] you’ve always actually been able to rise to the top just like in the olden days. So you used to take milk bottles and they would put a bottle of milk outside. And during the day the cream would rise to the top of the milk.

[00:43:14] That’s where the idea of cream of the crop or the crane, that’s where that came from. And what you do is you naturally, it’s not an effort you naturally organically over time rise to the top of whatever thing it is that you are concerned with or engaged in and over time, you will play, learn, correct your way to where you do well.

[00:43:44] And now it’s expanded to the point where you’re playing, learning and correcting so that others do well, so that ultimately others are playing, learning incorrect. And so all do well. That’s the natural progression of that. [00:44:00] Does that make sense? Okay, good.


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